Comments on Gertie's New Blog for Better Sewing: What Is Plus-Size, Anyway?

I'm a DD cup and have to buy different sizes t...

2010-02-23T16:13:46.361-05:00

I'm a DD cup and have to buy different sizes to fit top and bottom when I buy RTW. Dresses usually don't fit me unless I get them disproportionally large on bottom. I can get by with an 18 (pattern) on top if I cut a little extra and use narrow seams.

I'm a size 10-12 on bottom and sometimes a 14 on top depending on the cut. The sad part is my hip measurement is roughly the same size as my bust. I have a classic hourglass figure, and it's really hard to find RTW. At least with patterns I can make the adjustment before putting them together.

I'm new to reading your blog, but boy is it so...

2009-12-19T08:30:39.876-05:00

I'm new to reading your blog, but boy is it so helpful and interesting to read!

I have to agree with the other Aussie ladies who have posted! It's so frustrating that the sizing between countries is so different! I always have to look at measurements when buying a garment or pattern online, particularly from the US.

In regards to commercial pattern sizing (ie. the Big 4 Companies), one of the biggest issues I have is the amount of ease they add to the patterns. I'm generally an Aussie size 10-12 in RTW, with quite a small bust but larger hips and thighs. But according to most commercial patterns I'm about a 16-18!! But when you look at the *finished* measurements printed on the actual pattern pieces, I really am a 10-12 because on average there is about 4 inches ease added to the pattern. It's utterly ridiculous! So I always buy a 10-12, decide the size based on the measurements printed on the pieces, and alter accordingly. Why on EARTH would you need 4 inches of ease in a pattern? I just don't get it!

I totally agree that pigeon-holing people can be very unhelpful. I really wish we could go back to a more measurement based labelling rather than sizing. I have such odd proportions (long legs, small bust, wide ribcage to mention a few) that I generally find RTW clothing obscenely difficult to fit. It's one of the motivations for me to actually sew my own stuff; I got sick of spending hours and hours attempting to find RTW clothes that fit and looked flattering.

Grace! You're the first person to air my thou...

2009-12-04T16:23:52.775-05:00

Grace! You're the first person to air my thoughts on bust measurements!!

First, I agree with the comments that say label things with as many labels as possible for retrieval. It is hard for people to come up with words to search for what they want so if you have every category imaginable, you are more likely to get a hit in the searches.

I, however, have a similar problem to Grace's. I have a 10 inch difference between my bust and underbust measurement - which means I have a G cup. I have had to shop for bras in plus sized stores nearly since puberty and so it's rare that I find RTW that will fit my body shape. Because of my current job situation and life situation, my whole (top) wardrobe consists of tshirts and I have one buttonup dress shirt that I found at Walmart (oddly enough) that seems to be cut with a big enough cup so that the bottom of the shirt doesn't just swim on me, but still isn't quite right. Even tshirts don't fit quite right, but I try to buy things with enough spandex in them that they'll hug my underbust waist area and stretch over my bre@sts because otherwise I look pregnant in everything (especially sweatshirts).

All this to say that I wish things were listed by pattern size, measurements, not plus size, plus size, petite, long, curvy, and CUP SIZE!!!

I used to buy "plus size" patterns according to my measurements and even though the measurements looked like they should fit, I never produced anything I could wear because of my cup size. Being completely unaware of the fact most patterns are B or C cups, I thought I was a failed seamstress!! Now with the fitting guidebooks I have, I would buy based on my waist and hips (which do fit into a standardized size) and adjust the bust because my bone structure fits the size (across the shoulders etc), it's only my breasts that don't.

I think it's more important for people to know their own body and how to alter accordingly. Spend time and money on how-to books with good reviews before having as many failed projects as I did. If I'd have known, I'd have done it in that order.

I agree with Jennie! Bah HumBug indeed!! I no lo...

2009-12-01T15:58:01.584-05:00

I agree with Jennie! Bah HumBug indeed!! I no longer look at the "size" of any pattern, be it vintage or modern. I use my "high bust" measurement for dresses and tops and my hip for pants and skirts, period. Of course, I spend a lot of time with pattern alterations and such, but have done it so many times, it is second nature to me now, and doesn't feel like it takes any time at all.

I say "Bah Humbug" to the plus size labe...

2009-11-29T08:36:25.276-05:00

I say "Bah Humbug" to the plus size label!
I just go by the measurements on the envelope and make a decision from there whether to buy or not to buy.
Some skinny twit with a size 2 waist probably thought of that label anyhow!

I hate sizing in shops - just put the measurements...

2009-11-27T14:28:59.848-05:00

I hate sizing in shops - just put the measurements on the clothing!!!

I'm an Aussie living in the US and currently visiting the UK. I am roughly a 22 Aus / 24 US / 28 UK. What the????

And then try getting something to fit the girls in (E-F cup)? Finally add that I'm 5'7" and this adds up to no luck.

I now have a habit of taking a tape measure with me. I know my measurements in inches so I can at least see if the item I'm looking at will go anywhere near me.

However, back to Gertie's original post - I'm used to "Plus Sized" - don't particularly like it - but it's one of the more inoffensive titles.

I remember this outlet store here used to sell Fr ...

2009-11-27T13:17:08.317-05:00

I remember this outlet store here used to sell Fr low cost RTW.

We didn't go often becasue it was far but I always remembered the tags the most. They had a human silhouette in white over a blue background with 3 vertical lines. Bust, Waist and Hip with the measurements in cms next to is in big numbers.

I always said if I ever had a RTW line, that is how I would do it!

oh almost forgot "plus-sized" pattern I ...

2009-11-27T04:13:11.578-05:00

oh almost forgot "plus-sized" pattern I have been thinking over for a couple of days now but have decided to not buy. 42" bust

http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=25688187

I was thinking with the short sleeves but the skirt given a more 50's wiggle skirt cut.

I haven't read all the comments, I do apoligis...

2009-11-27T04:05:10.201-05:00

I haven't read all the comments, I do apoligise I have a cold and everything is a little fuzzy right now.

I aggree with what Nathalie said that all vendors should include the bust measurement in the heading. It makes searching for a pattern so much easier but a lot of sellers don't do this.

Thanks to PatternJunkie for bringing this issue up...

2009-11-26T13:33:13.406-05:00

Thanks to PatternJunkie for bringing this issue up.

I'm going to come down firmly on the anti-plus-size label side of the debate.

Unless we can all agree on where the arbitrarily drawn "this is considered plus size" line lies, I think using the term confuses the issue and stirs up all kinds of unnecessary insecurities.

I'd rather see people list and search according to the one measurement we all have a firm and unchanging grasp on - inches. Every one of us knows without question what an inch is and that expectation is consistent throughout the world AND throughout the decades.

It's for this very reason that I organize my etsy sections by bust measurement. As a not-totally-comprehensive but interesting data point, let's look at the relative number of each size: (quantity in brackets)

# 28 to 31 Inch Bust (26)
# 32 Inch Bust (57)
# 34 Inch Bust (72)
# 36 Inch Bust (101)
# 38 Inch Bust (20)
# 40 to 42 Inch Bust (28)
# 44 to 46 Inch Bust (11)

The drop off at a 38 inch bust (equivalent to an Old Navy Large or 12/14) is huge. Also bear in mind that the top end of the size scale 44-46" are likely to be from the 60s/70s. I'd don't believe I have ever come across a 44" bust from the 40s or 50s.

But then we also have to factor in the change in undergarments. I'm going to be a vastly different size in a corset than I am in my modern skivvies. When we reach back past the 60s, so many outfits were designed on the understanding that you would be wearing seriously shaping and restrictive underoos. Sure, ladies were generally smaller anyway, but I'll wager a vast proportion of those 26" waists were thanks to their internal organs being jammed up into their diaphragm ; )

Thanks for the hints ladies.. I always measure ove...

2009-11-26T00:15:49.719-05:00

Thanks for the hints ladies.. I always measure over the fullest part of the bust. But when you are a DD cup... it means the patterns are not going to be right. The patterns tend to assume that 42" bust means an A or B cup that is "large" around the body, whereas, I am "medium-ish" around the body and poke out a lot in front!

I think I just have to continue this learning process of working out how to adjust patterns properly!

Actually those models in that picture are a size 1...

2009-11-25T23:58:33.196-05:00

Actually those models in that picture are a size 12-14. Plus size is an industry term to say people size 14 and up in width. Fit models are a size 8 as this is the base pattern which all "normal size" patterns are graded from. Most print models are a size 2 or 4. Catwalk models are a whole other thing. When we use plus models they're usually a size 16. I don't really like plus size patterns that are out there because pattern companies assume someone of that size likes dressing like a grandma, so I just size up missy patterns to fit me.

For me the term plus size denotes ready to wear cl...

2009-11-25T22:30:38.650-05:00

For me the term plus size denotes ready to wear clothing sizes that are out of the ordinary range. In Australia, I consider this to anything above a size 14, though 16 and 18 are sneaking into more mainstream stores than they used to be. I think the meaning of the term is therefore fluid, as larger sizes become more available, what is considered plus sized is changing.

I completely agree that shape is a critical distinction too - one single measurement like bust can't provide a real picture of who is plus size and who isn't. (But I think the shape v size problem is one for all sizes not just plus when it comes to clothing and patterns.)

From a search and online perspective I think using plus size is very helpful - I've been disappointed so many times to find a garment/pattern/book/magazine only to discover is does not have anything for me. Knowing before I begin that this product caters to me is really important. But plus size is not exactly a precise instrument, so more info is needed too - size ranges help more than simply plus or no.

So if I measure 42" bust, and make accordi...

2009-11-25T22:16:02.575-05:00
So if I measure 42" bust, and make according to that size - why are the clothes impossibly large?

---------------

Because you buy the pattern to fit the largest part of your anatomy. It's easier to scale down the waist and the hips than it is to scale up the bust.

Cath. When you measure your bust do you use your ...

2009-11-25T21:58:08.866-05:00
Cath. When you measure your bust do you use your high bust? That is, basically under your armpits and over your chest, or over the fullest part of your bust? From what I understand, when purchasing the big 4 companies patterns you should use your high bust measurement. That way the shoulders are more likely to fit. You then do a full bust adjustment (FBA) if you are bigger than a B cup. I believe vintage patterns are the same. Burda patterns, apparently, don't require the high bust measurement.) This has always worked for me.

Oh Mischka.. I couldn't agree more! I was dis...

2009-11-25T21:15:04.881-05:00
Oh Mischka.. I couldn't agree more! I was discussing this very same issue last night with a girlfriend of mine. I bemoaned to her that I seem to be a Plus Size, even though I thought I was "about normal", that is, in US Size 10-12, Aus Sizes 12-16. (I am Austalian.) But according to patterns I measure about a Size 20-22 with my bust, a size 24 plus on waist and about a 16 on hips. I wish I had a waist too! I am in NO MAN's LAND!

My girlfriend complained about people invading her plus size territory! She is a very happy TRUE plus size woman, and was offended about pathetic little sizes like 14-18 being called Plus. LOL

Funnily enough when I have made outfits STRICTLY following the measurements given on patterns, I rarely found them to fit. So if I measure 42" bust, and make according to that size - why are the clothes impossibly large?

personally i just want to know what the measuremen...

2009-11-25T20:24:07.834-05:00
personally i just want to know what the measurements are. Being labled Plus size, usually comes with the feeling it will be an unstylish, ugly pattern as so many garments in the books labled Plus size are. For that matter in the stores as well. I fluctuate back and forth on measurements but the things that stay certain are my back to waist, and shoulder measurements. just because my bust is larger than a 36 doesnt mean i have the shoulders of a large man. Henceforth i have difficulties with plus size patterns really fitting correctly and usually try to adjust a regular misses pattern.
I actually dont think they even had the "plus size" patterns in the 70's and before. They had half size, which were usually designed for people with no taste or talent, they had Miss, and junior/teen. and yes later they came out with Chubbies for girls an boys, which i'm sure made any young girl learning to sew feel like she wanted to find a hole in and die. I was always 13/14 but had big biceps so i had to learn to adjust for that especially during the 70's when the styles went retro to the 40's. Measurements matter, not labels.

As one of the earlier posters has stated, the patt...

2009-11-25T20:00:15.808-05:00
As one of the earlier posters has stated, the pattern companies have really made this decision for us as they number the sizes to 18 and then start at a 40bust after that.

I am on the larger end of this discussion and have no problem with the term Plus Size. I am. Clearly. Look at me and you can see this. The terms I hate are curvy & volumptuous. You can be both of these but not be a plus size.

To me the term Plus Size means much more that a bust and hip measurement. It's about design & fitting. A plus sized pattern has different bust:waist:hip ratios that a 'normal' pattern. Plus Size is designed for a lower bust, a thicker waist and a well padded thigh area. Yes you can get some patterns that the range goes to a 42 but after that they stop. This is because of these issues. Some patterns have the W after the sizes to indicate that they are Women's patterns that take these shape into account when designing. Most of the vintage patterns that I have that are in my size are princess line. (Oh,to have an actual waist. *sigh*) Now, I have only a few vintage patterns that are actually my size (my high bust is a 46) so I need to buy 40 & 42 and heavily upgrade and then make my standard FBA, LBA, sloping shoulder and waist adusments. I understand that if I want vintage this is my plight.

I hope I do not offend, but it seems that the people who do not like this term are the women who's sizes are in the no-man's-land of the size 14, 16 & 18. And rightly so, you probably do not have the same fitting issues a true plus sized lady does. (Fit issues but not the same ones. Although, this also depends on your height!)

Judging from all the varied responses on the topic, it's easy to see that this is a complicated issue. I'm sure discussions of this nature will continue for decades to come!

I don't think I mentioned it earlier but mentioning measurements in the subject is, I believe, the easiest way for searchers. (Oh, and I'm an Aussie so measurements are so much easier because US number sizing is not the same as ours.)

All I want is the bust or hip size listed in the h...

2009-11-25T19:59:39.365-05:00
All I want is the bust or hip size listed in the header for the pattern. Bust for shirts and dresses, hip for pants and skirts.

Simple, right? :)

Gertie, I have to say that this was an awkward pos...

2009-11-25T19:30:44.832-05:00
Gertie, I have to say that this was an awkward post to see pop up in my feed reader when I was at work! I do think that image really nails your point home, though. As much as I wish both pattern and RTW companies would simply list by measurements, I readily admit that it took quite a lot to memorize mine, and I still recheck them fairly frequently because I don't feel certain that I am remembering them correctly. Of course, if we were trained to look for them from the get-go, I wouldn't have that problem. Obviously the bust size is the most important thing to tag, but I can see the utility of tagging plus size as it is something that people are searching for, and using the dividing line that both Lane Bryant and pattern publishers used seems to be a well grounded choice.

Oh for Pete's sake, why DON'T we go by the...

2009-11-25T19:19:59.235-05:00
Oh for Pete's sake, why DON'T we go by the measurement, not some arbitrary/meaningless "size". It works for men, it'll work for us. Pattern Junkie, I love your "But I'm a size 2." story. Sellers, for search purposes, list the damn measurments.
Oh, and I'm 5 foot even, and just about 100 pounds; should I have to search "MINUS-Size" patterns? Absurd.
-Sandra

I find the term a little odious (plus-what,...

2009-11-25T19:02:54.123-05:00
I find the term a little odious (plus-what, y'know?) but I'm not sure what a better alternative would be. Maybe justgreater awareness among the etsy-seler crowd on how correctly labelling their patterns would increase their sales...
how bough a convo-campaign putting the word out that we all want inch-measurements of patterns to be searchable?

Grace, I just meant that measurements in general d...

2009-11-25T18:32:06.353-05:00
Grace, I just meant that measurements in general don't lie, while retail sizes are affected by vanity sizing and such. Sorry if that was unclear! I totally agree with you - best to go with your high bust measurement. Thanks for adding that!

I don't have an answer for the "plus-size...

2009-11-25T17:28:24.089-05:00
I don't have an answer for the "plus-sized" question at the moment. I do however have a comment and your claim that the bust measurement never lies. I call bullshit. My bust measurement ALWAYS lies to me. That is because I am a D cup and I have narrow-ish shoulders. If I pick and cut a pattern based on my bust, I end up in a sack. Fit models usually have a B cup, which will give a more accurate pattern size. But for those of use with larger boobs, we are better off following our OVER bust measurement and then doing a full bust adjustment.

Love your blog!

Not sure about the 'plus-size' tag would h...

2009-11-25T16:27:06.193-05:00
Not sure about the 'plus-size' tag would help a lot to find patterns that fit well, as it finding a supposedly 'plus' 40' pattern wouldn't help a ladies who has a 46' bust that much (or would it?). I always rely on bust measurements to find patterns.
Morover, that might soon become another irrelevant tag for sellers to add, and finding an irrelevant result when looking for a precise thing, just because the seller wants his/her pattern to be seen is quite irritating, isn't it?

Comments on Gertie's New Blog for Better Sewing: What Is Plus-Size, Anyway?

I'm a DD cup and have to buy different sizes t...

I'm new to reading your blog, but boy is it so...

Grace! You're the first person to air my thou...

I agree with Jennie! Bah HumBug indeed!! I no lo...

I say "Bah Humbug" to the plus size labe...

I hate sizing in shops - just put the measurements...

I remember this outlet store here used to sell Fr ...

oh almost forgot "plus-sized" pattern I ...

I haven't read all the comments, I do apoligis...

Thanks to PatternJunkie for bringing this issue up...

Thanks for the hints ladies.. I always measure ove...

Actually those models in that picture are a size 1...

For me the term plus size denotes ready to wear cl...

So if I measure 42" bust, and make accordi...

Cath. When you measure your bust do you use your ...

Oh Mischka.. I couldn't agree more! I was dis...

personally i just want to know what the measuremen...

As one of the earlier posters has stated, the patt...

All I want is the bust or hip size listed in the h...

Gertie, I have to say that this was an awkward pos...

Oh for Pete's sake, why DON'T we go by the...

I find the term a little odious (plus-what,...

Grace, I just meant that measurements in general d...

I don't have an answer for the "plus-size...

Not sure about the 'plus-size' tag would h...