tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post1482620443881566314..comments2024-03-14T16:03:32.434-04:00Comments on Gertie's New Blog for Better Sewing: The Problem with Praising ModestyGertiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04314542159287533507noreply@blogger.comBlogger122125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-53015817062980358852011-10-24T09:39:17.069-04:002011-10-24T09:39:17.069-04:00The reason modesty is prevalent in religious cultu...The reason modesty is prevalent in religious cultures...especially Christianity goes back to the verse, "Do not cause your brother to stumble." That is one reason we dress modestly because it does help men if they aren't shown flesh with wreckless abandon. Sure there will always be those men that are very sick in the head and will undress you with their mind no matter what. But for the men who truly struggle with their impurities, it is our job to assist them. I mean you wouldn't sit a bottle of wine in front of an alcoholic right? Or a joint in front of a drug addict? So why parade your flesh around in front of men? <br /><br />I don't feel like it is anti-feminine to cover up appropriately. It is a respectful gesture that many men appreciate as per the survey you referenced. I'm sorry that made you sick, but it was guys telling the truth. You can't take the thoughts and the inclinations away from men. I do believe many a rape could be prevented if we adhered to stricter modesty in today's culture. Many could also be prevented by women not putting themselves in compromising positions with men. I do feel that a woman should shoulder some of the blame if her dress/actions are inappropriate. If not, then none of the blame. <br /><br />I guarantee you that if women started dressing more modestly and acting more feminine/more polite/etc. that more respect would be given by men. More than you could ever garnish from trying to take it by parading around half naked....that's not having respect for yourself. Respect is earned. Lack of respect towards women didn't come around until the feminist movement. Women were respected...that's why doors were held open, men didn't swear in front of ladies, etc. Then we demanded to be their equal and now our youth are in constant rebellion cause they have no home life cause the mother works 24-7, men are becoming more like women/women more like men, there are no gentlemen or ladies anymore, everyone is rude and unkind to one another because there is no decorum, no respect...it's truly sickening. Women don't raise ladies anymore...they raise girls. Men don't raise gentlemen....they raise boys. And here we are...more teen pregnancies, more abortions, more sex, more divorces,...how can this be a good thing?Mom of Many Blessingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16944098489492006247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-58872657326151756702011-01-25T18:50:15.772-05:002011-01-25T18:50:15.772-05:00Wonderful post, very thought provoking. I've ...Wonderful post, very thought provoking. I've talked to several of my male friends and while they always treat me well and are generally good guys anyhow....I have noticed that when we come across a woman who dresses in what would be considered a cintage modern style, they act a little different, more repectful, with more manners. When I pressed the issue we had some great conversations, modesty had nothing to do with it, for them, that was a "female myth." Seeing vintage styling reminded them of vintage mannerisms whether is be from movies or older relatives, it brought them out of our general culture that has gotten less formal and more rude, and like most humans, they felt the need to conform. I was pretty comfortable with that, but I did challenge them to keep the manners up all the time.Caraleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16494661890619810791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-73053290045188389572010-12-11T19:32:40.802-05:002010-12-11T19:32:40.802-05:00Men, as everyone has said, are certainly responsib...Men, as everyone has said, are certainly responsible for controlling their actions. No man has a right to disrespect or victimize a woman, nor to blame women for being disrespected or victimized. <br /><br />But kids are being asked to control their very thoughts. A lot of young men and women are raised to believe that just THINKING something is sexy is a serious thoughtcrime. <br /><br />That poll is so tragic because it’s a bunch of young men and boys imploring young women and girls to shoulder part of the Sisyphean task set before them of controlling what they either can’t control at all, or can’t control without spending an inordinate amount of time and effort on it. Think how much more energy those kids and young adults would have to spend on learning to be kind, to be patient, to treat all others with equal respect, to visit the sick, to help the poor, if they didn’t have to spend so much time thinking “If I look at her boobs or his butt, I’m going to hell!” <br /><br />“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”—Matthew 5:28 <br /><br />Having been raised strictly Catholic, I tear up when I think of how much joy and life this statement has stolen from the world, and particularly from the young. <br /><br />--JuniperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-41731067473356892272010-11-30T10:52:10.950-05:002010-11-30T10:52:10.950-05:00Thank you for tackling this subject. I have just r...Thank you for tackling this subject. I have just recently become aware of the modest dress movement. I deplore the idea that men cannot control themselves and place the blame on women for "seducing" them. That is slippery slope that can end up with women still being dangerous even if they covered head to toe...their eyes could be wanton.It should be a woman's choice but she also needs to be aware of how she will be viewed and whether she is comfortable and capable of handling the attention.Crazy RAvens Studiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13899701743108985403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-76075545257582664122010-09-04T10:19:47.233-04:002010-09-04T10:19:47.233-04:00I'm appalled, as well, but not at the young me...I'm appalled, as well, but not at the young men, they're just being brutally honest about their feelings and urges. I have a young son who is often confused about how to feel about women dressed revealingly or even seductively because the reaction of his body is so strong and he's unaccustomed to it, puberty being new and all. I just wonder if this is an American phenomenon or if these attitudes are global in males. If global, is it instinctual, and if so, can we really be so upset about the fact that they are experiencing these reactions to our bodies? I've experienced a strong physical reaction to a stranger before and had to sort of rein the instincts in... I've had the "mama bear" instinct to hurt a person that hurt my child, that of course had to be reined in, but I still experienced that desire and it was powerful; to experience it regularly and daily would be debilitating. Is a man's reaction to a woman's body just as strong?Lissahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06467618694347245333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-59725191410453115702010-08-03T13:16:33.480-04:002010-08-03T13:16:33.480-04:00That website is appalling. It's making me want...That website is appalling. It's making me want to call off work today for fear of what the mean looks from customers REALLY imply. <br /><br />Eck.seujlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03556609771200974856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-71776741350649716552010-08-01T16:52:47.540-04:002010-08-01T16:52:47.540-04:00Wonderful post - wonderful discussion with so many...Wonderful post - wonderful discussion with so many valuable insights.<br /><br />As many have stated, this is a complex issue. The presentation of self, of gender. The politics of power and sex. Immensly interesting.<br /><br />One aspect of dress has not been mentioned explicitly though, but skirted around here and there. Dress and body adornement (along with body modification) as a means of separating Culture from Nature, Human/People from Animal and Us from Them.(Since "They" are often construed as "Not Properly Human" - it's the same thing, really)<br /><br />Fat and sweaty bodies, hairy bodies, bodies engaged in sexual activity (even if it's sending a bit more overt signals) poor and unclothed bodies, naked bodies for sale can all be construed as Nature and as such not acceptable for Us Proper People. (And thus "asking for it"). This Nature is often seen as an intrusion in society and the workplace - what some anthropologists call "matter out of place" and therefore dirty, unclean and undesirable. <br /><br />This is not to say that the same culture that views uncovered bodies in this way can not also *at the same time* have a romantic notion of nature.<br /><br />Now, this way of viewing the issues of modesty is just one way, mind. Thought I'd throw it out there.Vibeke in Oslonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-90416792991473144282010-07-26T22:29:33.326-04:002010-07-26T22:29:33.326-04:00I thought the elephant in the room in the original...I thought the elephant in the room in the original post was class, not just modesty. Vintage clothing is often more formal and hard to take care of than modern clothes, so wearing it makes you look richer, if in an unexpected counterculture way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-62476843659388635822010-07-26T12:24:14.477-04:002010-07-26T12:24:14.477-04:00Yeah, that Modesty Survey made my headspin... but ...Yeah, that Modesty Survey made my headspin... but then I read the "open discussion" section and the question of "As a guy, what is your responsibility in this area? What is your role in guarding your eyes and mind (as opposed to the women's role of dressing modestly)?" and all of the answers I read explained in one way or another that everyone is solely responsible for themselves and their own actions. One poster even said that you must treat a woman with respect regardless of whether you think she's dressed modestly. <br />That set of responses made me feel better. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-1158071392822478732010-07-24T07:35:31.763-04:002010-07-24T07:35:31.763-04:00I had a serious illness and the first thing that h...I had a serious illness and the first thing that happened was everybody wanted to know: did I do this, did I do that.... I'd like to think they were concerned about me, but truthfully I felt like they were trying to lower their own odds. It's not quite blame the victim, but it's close.<br /><br />Your last sentence encompasses everything I've felt. We all deserve respect, not matter what! <br /><br />I wish we always acted that way and could send this around to the rest of the world as well.RoseAGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01360864547510178832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-53799869199089447892010-07-24T06:58:58.180-04:002010-07-24T06:58:58.180-04:00This post is why I love to follow your blog, Gerti...This post is why I love to follow your blog, Gertie!<br />Your writing is so articulate and you have a knack for navigating around complex ideas like modesty, as well as being a kick ass seamstress.Kitty Redfernnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-78691327891442230602010-07-24T04:08:15.415-04:002010-07-24T04:08:15.415-04:00Yes, yes, yes, exactly! Great comments from everyo...Yes, yes, yes, exactly! Great comments from everyone that I've read too (only made it down to about 20 though!)<br /><br />I did a post about this a while back too. here:<br />http://orangesapples.blogspot.com/2010/01/modest-dressing.htmlFrancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05495421838862275042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-9226565620440094062010-07-23T23:32:33.688-04:002010-07-23T23:32:33.688-04:00Thank you Jana. <3
No one should assume they k...Thank you Jana. <3 <br />No one should assume they know about your life and motivations for wearing what you wear just from looking at you. I am often shamed by girls my age for not wearing shorts and tank tops and I am sick of it. I respect them and expect the same in return.Maryamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-24097844623799068632010-07-23T17:42:29.430-04:002010-07-23T17:42:29.430-04:00Love it. Linking to it. You discussed this issue s...Love it. Linking to it. You discussed this issue so much more coherently than I ever could. I always get so dang MAD thinking about it, because I was taught the "women should be modest to protect men from their own hormones" line all my life in church, and I saw all the cute slogans like "Modest is Hottest," etc. So I get pissed and incoherent trying to talk about it. But you...your clarity astounds me.Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09911436374302699015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-12367135537546828502010-07-23T17:20:34.815-04:002010-07-23T17:20:34.815-04:00LOVE what you have to say. This whole discussion ...LOVE what you have to say. This whole discussion in Blogland this week is thrilling me!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07962445987863685289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-86648233966526550962010-07-23T13:33:32.125-04:002010-07-23T13:33:32.125-04:00Very interesting post, Gertie! A lot to think abou...Very interesting post, Gertie! A lot to think about. <br /><br />I've read through the comments here, and am frankly disappointed by some of them. Though, for the most part, they discuss how it shouldn't matter what women wear, I did see a bit of snarking regarding women who wear more than some feel they should. The idea of "oppression" has come up a few times. <br /><br />I'm Jewish. And I consider myself fairly observant. Jewish law requires women to cover their chests, knees and elbows. It also requires women to cover their hair upon marriage. Is this sexist? Some may think so, but no. There are certainly sects within Judaism that take it too far and clearly do oppress women, but at its core, the modesty rules are not. Men are required to dress modestly just as women are. Men are required to cover their heads from the age of 3. Both are required to act modestly. <br /><br />I do not like to show my skin. I personally feel it is inappropriate. I enjoy covering my hair. Am I oppressed? I've been told so. And this is what I find most insulting. That I cannot choose for MYSELF how I will act and dress without someone telling me there is something wrong with me. And those insults almost always come from women who claim to be feminists. If they really were, they would have respected my choice rather than shove their ideas of how I should dress/act/be in my face.<br /><br />If a woman feels more comfortable in shorts and a tank top. Great! Good for her. How in the world does her clothing affect my life? It doesn't, so I don't really care how she dresses. Just the same, if a woman chooses to wear a tichel or hijab (because yes, it's ACTUALLY possible for that to be personal choice), who cares? It's bad enough when men treat a woman poorly for how she dresses, but even worse when we treat each other poorly for our attire. This snarking is only adding to the difficulty in gaining the respect we deserve in society.Janahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00085496180801555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-77965194801154987742010-07-23T13:25:58.523-04:002010-07-23T13:25:58.523-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Janahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00085496180801555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-5591819700654286602010-07-22T19:09:47.555-04:002010-07-22T19:09:47.555-04:00The biggest reason that the whole "she wore t...The biggest reason that the whole "she wore that, what did she expect" argument has to do with my job. Well, one of my jobs. I work part-time at a nonprofit. They can't afford to hire me full-time, so the rest of the time I work as an artist's model for various schools around the city I live in. Most of the work is for life drawing classes, so yes, it is nude. I work as an artist's model not because I am some "free spirit" or nudity enthusiast, but because I did the math and figured that I could either work retail and barely make enough to live hand-to-mouth, or I could work as an artist's model, make a higher hourly rate, and have a bit of money to save. I don't model because I am trying to pick up men or because I want to invite objectifying behavior. And mostly people understand that. Even still, I run into a lot of people who make my job a lot harder by either treating me as a sex object (usually men making comments or bugging me with personal questions) or just as an object (people of either sex who think it's ok to poke me, grab me to correct my position, or make comments as if I can't hear them - while I am naked). No thanks, please. And when I object to this kind of behavior, I am very frequently faced with the attitude of "you're working as a nude model, what did you expect." Actually, every single contract I've ever had with a school has specifically stated that students are not to touch me - a lot of them specify that students aren't even permitted to talk to me. My job definitely doesn't entail showing off my body for people's sexual gratification, nor does it entail serving as an inanimate object on which people can focus their entitlement issues. Curiously enough, my job entails holding poses for various lengths of time so that art students can further their studies of drawing and anatomy, and that's all!<br /><br />That's what I think when I'm subjected to objectifying harassment or treatment in my life outside of working in the art schools. If it's not part of my job as an artist's model, it's not part of my job as a woman either - and I'm not asking for it.Kim D.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-230163676424169682010-07-22T12:07:11.114-04:002010-07-22T12:07:11.114-04:00This was so interesting. I agree that what is cons...This was so interesting. I agree that what is considered modest varies according to the culture, religious views, and personal views of the individual. I agree that regardless of the level of modesty that a woman chooses, she should still be shown respect. It shows a lack of character in the man who gawks or makes advances at a woman inappropriately. I don't think you even have to be showing too much skin to get this reaction from some men. I've had this happen to me when I was wearing the loosest sloppiest garments. Some men are just going to make comments no matter what a woman is wearing. <br /><br />Trudy<br />www.sewingwithtrudy.blogspot.comTrudyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649677045881448393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-91599729961438247362010-07-22T11:52:16.659-04:002010-07-22T11:52:16.659-04:00Bravo Gertie!
Nathalie and tanisitis, I'm tot...Bravo Gertie!<br /><br />Nathalie and tanisitis, I'm totally with you. All this assumption of cultural blindness in 'Western' feminists is bs. If we have to stereotype each other, I'd say it's often late-converted Muslims who grew up in Western countries who blather on about how the veil is good for women, not the Muslim women who grew up with that kind of restriction in Muslim countries, and who rip it off gleefully as soon as possible. The latter make most 'Western' feminists look like tame poodles, when they get to a real fight. Muslim fundamentalists however are often quite well-versed in using a well-meaning Western desire not to be racist for their sexist purposes, as we see demonstrated so ably here.<br /><br />Luckily for women, most Muslims aren't fundamentalists.. not any more than in other religions, who all have their share of that scourge alas (just look at that Christian survey). Nor are most men rapists, also luckily. But still women get stuck with the duty to defend themselves against both extremes, so far.<br /><br />Toby Wollin, your post does point out a dilemma common to all minorities - is the best strategy to get ahead assimilation or hanging on to your differences? The pendulum swings back and forth without a clear winner emerging so far :-). But I know that the women who you see now wearing 'feminine' suits in corporate settings wore navy blue 20 years ago. The times have changed, the successful women have changed with them. Still, personally I think it's because guys like Peter wear dresses that some of you can stand your butch-but-gay colleagues more easily now than in those supposedly rosey 50s. So don't be afraid of a little extremism once in a while, even if your supposed allies scream that you're making them look bad.<br /><br />Let me point out as an aside that it's a mistake to equate 'modesty' in dress and in behavior. Peter is totally right in that all this modesty stuff hides a deep fear of sex and attendant disgust, as well as more specifically a desire to control women's sexuality. Emily is also right to dissociate so well nudity from sexuality. I usually dress with more coverage than most young women do now, in part out of a feminist feeling that my worth lies neither in my body parts nor in my willingness to display them. But I behave a whole lot sluttier than most of them can even imagine :-). And I'm not the least bit ashamed of it. So there.<br /><br />Moreover, in my experience most people who flaunt it are really boring and conventional deep down, they dress to compensate.. Which is not to say that the ones who cover up ostentatiously are at all sexy should you ever succeed in getting their clothes off. As in so many other areas of life, there is a point to moderation..<br /><br />But as Jen O and Advanced Beginner said, this is not the first time that all these issues have cropped up in the context of textiles. Read up, people!Marienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-37187840342387840732010-07-22T09:05:09.019-04:002010-07-22T09:05:09.019-04:00This is a great post, and although I agree that me...This is a great post, and although I agree that men should not be treated as poor babies who can't control themselves, I know that us woman sometimes like to use the power of our outfit to get what we want - you know in a controlling/manipulative way. I think what Christian guys refer to mostly are girls TRYING to make it hard for guys who aren't THEIR guys. There are definitely two sides to the coin, and I can say that because I used to be one of those girls who got a rush when I saw that I had that effect on a guy. Now, being married, I realise that I don't want to "advertise" what I have to offer to any passer-by anymore. Just a thought! Still not feeling sorry for those guys who can't control themselves!Kobiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04040806388456940659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-49609486187628550382010-07-22T06:51:57.357-04:002010-07-22T06:51:57.357-04:00Personally, angelindisguise, I don't think the...Personally, angelindisguise, I don't think there is any misunderstanding about the survey at all. The questions are all phrased in a manner that is loaded and which encourages a specific set of responses - and those are exactly the responses they got. Manipulative (and pretty loathsome in my view) maybe, but effective...Nathaliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11570545194570856281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-24117064991377540962010-07-22T04:55:17.904-04:002010-07-22T04:55:17.904-04:00@Hoosiermama well said.
I think in general there ...@Hoosiermama well said.<br /><br />I think in general there is a misunderstanding of the survey. please read through the explanations carefully. The statements that you read are NOT prescriptions nor are they supposed to be. They are statements to which the guys reacted, nothing else.<br /><br />In general tough, modesty goes both ways, and yes, women do have a responsibility, but so do men. I would like to see a survey done for girls, but at the end of the day what will it accomplish? Is it only about respect, or is it about relationships? <br />Unfortunately many religions have been slated for "oppressing" women with dress codes and there will never be an answer to those questions it raises - ever! So, as an individual we all need to decide where we draw the line as well as stop judging each other for having different standards. That is where we all can make a difference....angelindisguisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10134302967449249426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-51678352137121157002010-07-22T04:44:49.013-04:002010-07-22T04:44:49.013-04:00@bottom of the league,
Come on... serial killers?...@bottom of the league,<br /><br />Come on... serial killers? What utter nonsense of statistics you are coughing up. Your assumptions on "we notice immediately when realtives go missing'" in relation to serial killers are the dumbest thing I heard in a long time. I'm sorry but that sounds even more stupid than blaming islam for honor killings. <br />And be entertained by serial killers? Maybe it's like in certain countries people get entertained by public executions? <br /><br />Get real lady! There is no perfect society, not in the US, not in Europe, not in the Middle East not in India nor in Rwanda. We as humans all try our best and obviously fail on many occasions. <br />Why are you so defensive and persistent? I always wonder why converted people seem so aggresively want to make their point? If you were truly confident in your choice of life you could do without that.<br /><br />You made some interesting points in your first comments,but now it's like you kinda diggin' your own grave in the discussion. You use the same silly arguments as the ones you are blaming.<br /><br />And frankly, who is "bottom of the league" anyway? To me it is s as anonymous as "anonymous".<br /><br />Gosh, I wish you could lighten up and see the many sides of any culture or country.<br />A place where you can take a bikeride with your fellow nudists without any consequences other than laughter, you can applaude to.superheidihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03912074343442864029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-79802566127046082092010-07-22T02:09:05.579-04:002010-07-22T02:09:05.579-04:00Strongly concur that we should all respect each ot...Strongly concur that we should all respect each other regardless of dress or lack thereof. <br /><br />I live in a city where it's perfectly legal to be naked in public and there are organized (and unorganized) nudist events all the time. The naked bike ride just wheeled past my house a few days ago. There's a naked run every year in a different part of the city. Exhibitionist? Perhaps. Sexual? Honestly, not at all. The men & women participating in this stuff (and there is a fairly even gender balance) are not "asking for it." In fact, one of the ideas behind these events is to demystify what REAL naked bodies look like, making them less of a combined fetish object/source of disappointment (after all, none of us measure up to the airbrushed images of nudes in movies/media). The idea is to be comfortable in your own skin, and lessen the stigma of nakedness in society in general. Our bodies are where we live all the time, not just when we're having sex or engaging in the build-up to having sex (cruising/courting/foreplay). <br /><br />I don't participate in these events (and can I just say OUCH to the naked bike ride), but more power to those ladies & gents, I say. If we could all become used to seeing an unusually-attired body now and then, be it a naked person or someone in a burqa, without getting all offended or interpreting it as license to disrespect the naked/burqa-clad person, we'd have come a long way.Emilyhttp://www.familytrunkproject.comnoreply@blogger.com