tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post1439847373569881133..comments2024-03-14T16:03:32.434-04:00Comments on Gertie's New Blog for Better Sewing: Foundation Garments and Body Image, RevisitedGertiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04314542159287533507noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-28390736436999871852011-06-29T15:20:42.492-04:002011-06-29T15:20:42.492-04:00Your post touches on how the discontinued use of r...Your post touches on how the discontinued use of restrictive lingerie has hurt our society, but you don't actually give any examples of how it benefited women. I'm curious to know how it has improved our every day lives.Ehttp://emoonbourn.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-80071467239233989662011-01-12T17:18:28.104-05:002011-01-12T17:18:28.104-05:00Gertie,
Thanks so much for posting that quotatio...Gertie, <br /><br />Thanks so much for posting that quotation and your thoughts. I think this is a fantastic place to start a new direction for this conversation. The idea that so much of the body image issue has developed from a general inability to as easily conform a body to the ideal image, replacing a foundation garment such as a girdle which does the work for you with exercise which produces completely unpredictable visible results. It totally makes sense to understand that women are frustrated emotionally and psychologically by their inability to naturally create something that was achieved with the help of undergarments before. <br /><br />Furthermore, I have no problem as a feminist with the idea of Spanx or something similar as a way of smoothing out the lumps that are highlighted by this dress or that skirt. These kinds of undergarments, I feel, work with women's bodies and simply enhance it for a particular look. <br /><br />The missing element of this conversation is often that even as ideals of a fashionable female silhouette swing back and forth so frequently, the constant is that they are still based on something that was created artificially rather than the reality of women's bodies. The truth about girdles and corsets is that they forced a woman's body to conform to their shape rather than enhancing her own. Back in the day, they would often permanently alter a woman's shape, forcing ribs and organs to rearrange themselves to fit within the allotted shape. The ideal was not congruent with the realty of most women's bodies and yet it became a universal ideal that we continue to pursue today. <br /><br />I'm perfectly alright with a restrictive garment that works with my body, but if I have to mold my body to fit into a idealized version only achievable through the use of bone and wire and the altering of my actual body shape, then I'm denying the reality of what my body was created to look like, inside and out! The reality of my body is that I have a soft spot that pooches out on my stomach, my waist is beautiful but not so small that I could fit my hands around it, and no amount of sit-ups and crunches will give me perfectly flat abs and the ideal hourglass ratio, but I've struggled to learn what my body is and what it should be, and to love it as such. I've had to work very hard to uproot my understanding of attractive as one that not simply unrealistic but unreal. <br /><br />We have to stop expecting ourselves to conform to something that doesn't really exist naturally and create a new ideal of feminine beauty that's actually based on feminine beauty.Caitlinhttp://caitlinfaith.tumblr.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-32228679223972618072011-01-12T17:17:54.508-05:002011-01-12T17:17:54.508-05:00Gertie,
Thanks so much for posting that quotatio...Gertie, <br /><br />Thanks so much for posting that quotation and your thoughts. I think this is a fantastic place to start a new direction for this conversation. The idea that so much of the body image issue has developed from a general inability to as easily conform a body to the ideal image, replacing a foundation garment such as a girdle which does the work for you with exercise which produces completely unpredictable visible results. It totally makes sense to understand that women are frustrated emotionally and psychologically by their inability to naturally create something that was achieved with the help of undergarments before. <br /><br />Furthermore, I have no problem as a feminist with the idea of Spanx or something similar as a way of smoothing out the lumps that are highlighted by this dress or that skirt. These kinds of undergarments, I feel, work with women's bodies and simply enhance it for a particular look. <br /><br />The missing element of this conversation is often that even as ideals of a fashionable female silhouette swing back and forth so frequently, the constant is that they are still based on something that was created artificially rather than the reality of women's bodies. The truth about girdles and corsets is that they forced a woman's body to conform to their shape rather than enhancing her own. Back in the day, they would often permanently alter a woman's shape, forcing ribs and organs to rearrange themselves to fit within the allotted shape. The ideal was not congruent with the realty of most women's bodies and yet it became a universal ideal that we continue to pursue today. <br /><br />I'm perfectly alright with a restrictive garment that works with my body, but if I have to mold my body to fit into a idealized version only achievable through the use of bone and wire and the altering of my actual body shape, then I'm denying the reality of what my body was created to look like, inside and out! The reality of my body is that I have a soft spot that pooches out on my stomach, my waist is beautiful but not so small that I could fit my hands around it, and no amount of sit-ups and crunches will give me perfectly flat abs and the ideal hourglass ratio, but I've struggled to learn what my body is and what it should be, and to love it as such. I've had to work very hard to uproot my understanding of attractive as one that not simply unrealistic but unreal. <br /><br />We have to stop expecting ourselves to conform to something that doesn't really exist naturally and create a new ideal of feminine beauty that's actually based on feminine beauty.Caitlinhttp://caitlinfaith.tumblr.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-19469212047127492472011-01-07T21:10:51.711-05:002011-01-07T21:10:51.711-05:00I am late to this commenting party, but I thought ...I am late to this commenting party, but I thought I'd add something anyway.<br />I don't think that choices exist in a vacuum. I've heard in many contexts that feminism "is about choice," but this misconstrues the fact that the very choices that we are offered exist within a larger structure of capitalism, patriarchy, classism, racism, etc. I will never argue that someone's decision to wear foundation garments are not feminist or something they should or should not do, but rather these decisions should be made with a clear recognition of how certain choices contribute to larger social phenomenon. For example, I think it's great to wear things that boost one's self esteem, but what does this communicate to young girls? How can we teach self esteem to our daughter/nieces/female children in our lives that are not based on physical appearance alone but also on academic, moral, athletic, artistic (etc.) accomplishments? Perhaps one solution would be greater transparency. Women could be more open with other women about the efforts they go through to attain their figures- whether a no sugar diet with Pilates or undergarments and a great tailor. <br />I don't think this issue is any different than other cosmetic choices- such as make up or high heels. There are definitely social benefits to make changes to one's appearance to fit societal norms, but we should be aware of what these decisions mean.Radhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01946279879863336523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-10599983045656057682011-01-06T10:56:06.639-05:002011-01-06T10:56:06.639-05:00For each his or her own. I think that as long as p...For each his or her own. I think that as long as peeps do whatever the heck pleases them, fine. At least when it comes to undies or lack of them. Yet there always is the paradox- so many people are really peeved of how other people receive them. When in reality, they might be pissed to find out how very little anybody obsesses over them.<br /><br />Personally, I sometimes wear foundation garments, usually don´t. Every woman I know wear foundation garments of sorts every now and then. We talk about them very liberately, and there´s no taboo. It´s just as usual as wearing a cardigan. <br /><br />When it comes to working out- it´s only reasonable. I´m a true believer when it comes to us humans being in harmony, both mind and body being healthy.<br />Crash diets are never a good option either, but I doubt it´s always that black and white. Either a foundation garment or crash dieting and arduous workouts...<br />OTOH, I´ve lost a lot of cm´s / inches over the past 4-5 months, just because I found several new food allergies and removed them entirely from my diet. I do admit that I now wear a lot less shapewear than I used to. Then again, I fail to see how looking fine would un- liberate me anyhow... <br /><br />I think beautiful underwear is a pleasure no matter how yo look at it. Just this morning I sewed two bra-tops and two thongs for the hell of it. Because I wanted to.WeirdRockStarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17388608744555605499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-25214114324522141462011-01-05T21:36:57.398-05:002011-01-05T21:36:57.398-05:00I just wanted to add that most of the diets we hav...I just wanted to add that most of the diets we have today e.g. Atkins and calorie counting date almost unchanged from between 1900 and 1930:)<br />The 'reducing' diet was an obsession in the 20s and 30s.You wanted no hips and no boobs for the twenties and slim from the ribs down with slim limbs in the thirties.<br />Since I have been cleaning my house the old way(scrubbing on my knees)I think I might have found one way to fit vintage clothes...man that is hard work.starzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12823368296927818719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-64988468617290729342011-01-05T11:02:35.580-05:002011-01-05T11:02:35.580-05:00Ooo, I think you hit the nail on the head with reg...Ooo, I think you hit the nail on the head with regards to the morality of "fitness". There is a great deal of pressure on people (not just women) to hit the gym or pay the consequences...including derision from complete strangers. I find it interesting that people's "health habits" have become such a focal point for a morality debate, perhaps taking away from issues such as honesty, integrity, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-71231733987490478192011-01-05T02:39:06.714-05:002011-01-05T02:39:06.714-05:00Having read all the comments I can't resist ad...Having read all the comments I can't resist adding a thought: Some of the comments here expresses the idea that today's beauty ideals are harder to live up to because it can't be helped by external devices (such as corsets). But if one leaves the corsets and look to other fields, there has always been beauty ideals that could only be reached by what nature gave you. One example is fine teeth and skin in regency England (early 19th c, expressed among other places in Jane Austens novels), long before dental care and specialized skin-care products. Or big eyes. A specific hair-colour/eye-colour. Etc...<br /><br />My point is that while not closing our eyes to current problems with self-image, eating disorder and such, maybe we should take a step back and appreciate the very many possibilities we nowadays have to look how we want, and more importantly our many choices for our health. While the fight for equal rights are far from over, I don't think it a sin to also enjoy where we are today. And maybe just recognize that the ideal beauty has always been near impossible to embody.Erikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762815696807107905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-71324254274732142062011-01-05T01:49:09.903-05:002011-01-05T01:49:09.903-05:00I've been familiar with the contents of that q...I've been familiar with the contents of that quote for a few years. And, although I think we should be careful is classifing these things as cause and effect, I agree with it and with your statements about foundation wear.<br /><br />I would even like to add to it: almost always, 19th century feminism and the reform movement, which appeared around the same time, are seen as connected and part of the same change. It seems to make sense, based on the same retstrictive clothes = restricted life principle. However, in the book 'Fashion and Fetishism', which makes a study of corsetry, not just as foundation wear but more as a social and cultural phenomenon, writer David Kunzle shows that these were separate developments. In fact, there were even tightlacing suffragettes. <br />The equation between foundation wear and gender based oppression doesn't seem to have been made until the 1960's. And apperently even then, the 'bra-burning' stories were highly exaggerated in the public's mind (maybe stirred up like that by male imagination?)<br /><br />All I want to say is: no one should feel forced to embrace a certain opinion about foundation wear, based on feminist ideals. And if you're interested in the topic, add the book I mentioned to your 'to read'-listLaurianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16602295642057814667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-83250478866563799002011-01-05T00:49:18.302-05:002011-01-05T00:49:18.302-05:00Thanks for a fantastic book recommendation. As a f...Thanks for a fantastic book recommendation. As a feminist myself, i think men and women have equal rights of making sure ones look and feel great. If that involves dieting and exercising or wearing girdles, so be it. I am lucky enough to have a constant shape and weight but If i have to choose, I would go with wearing girdles because I love to eat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-80652357285175511472011-01-04T22:40:35.976-05:002011-01-04T22:40:35.976-05:00What an amazing find! Santa always knows...What an amazing find! Santa always knows...winterpeachbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08418652952818981346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-65149705680568084002011-01-04T20:19:32.353-05:002011-01-04T20:19:32.353-05:00Oh. My. Goodness.
Blogger was being a horse'...Oh. My. Goodness.<br /><br />Blogger was being a horse's patootie. I apologize for posting 56,000 copies of <i>the same comment</i>.<br /><br />All but one have been deleted.Little Black Carhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313164876855565140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-86046179876616037162011-01-04T20:14:51.082-05:002011-01-04T20:14:51.082-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Little Black Carhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313164876855565140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-84704695632814975072011-01-04T20:08:32.844-05:002011-01-04T20:08:32.844-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Little Black Carhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313164876855565140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-13548256800440535422011-01-04T20:04:54.523-05:002011-01-04T20:04:54.523-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Little Black Carhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313164876855565140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-26661167424066313062011-01-04T20:04:07.267-05:002011-01-04T20:04:07.267-05:00I agree with Baroness Von Vintage way up there tha...I agree with Baroness Von Vintage way up there that extreme body modification is much older than the 1960's, but I do think that the decades since the 1960's have idealized a body type that is far less easily "created" by means of clothing. You can fake curvy or bosomy but you can't fake rail-thin, which has basically been the ideal since the late 1960's (except possibly during the 1980's when clothes were so huge and padded). I can stuff my bra, tighten my girdle, and pad my backside to create an hourglass, but there's nothing I can do to create narrow hips and skinny thighs where I have a broad pelvis and meaty legs. (I'm not even overweight. This isn't a weight issue with me; it's a proportion issue.)<br /><br />It's a lot easier to feel badly about the body you have when it's impossible to disguise how far it is from the ideal. I feel <i>much</i> better about myself in a big 1950's skirt that hides my extremely-unfashionable pear shape than I would trying to conform to the current skinny-jeans ideal, which would be embarrassing and uncomfortable. I may <i>look</i> less liberated in my June Cleaver gear but I'm so not.<br /><br />Learning to sew and being able to make clothes that actually fit me--and I happen to have a build that lends itself naturally to "unliberated" 1940's and 1950's styles--has allowed me to stop fighting with my clothes, with the whole concept of clothes, and in large part with my body image. I don't know if I think about clothes more now or not, but I definitely think about them <i>positively</i> far more than I used to. I used to think about clothes a lot largely because I dreaded getting dressed in the morning, knowing that nothing fit that well, would be that comfortable, or would look that good on me.<br /><br />I'm not kidding: Basic sewing skills changed my life. For the better.<br /><br />I think looking and feeling good is a basic human thing. People have been ornamenting themselves and clothes, it seems, for pretty much as long as archaeology can tell us anything about what they wore. Remember the Ice Man they found in the Alps in the early 1990's? He was wearing a black-and-white striped fur vest.<br /><br />I continue to believe that feminism means choice. I don't want to be forced to wear certain clothes, but if I choose to wear a corset and long skirt, it's nobody else's business.Little Black Carhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313164876855565140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-30128747174268578102011-01-04T19:57:58.526-05:002011-01-04T19:57:58.526-05:00oops sorry, that should say 'physically restri...oops sorry, that should say 'physically restrictive'mayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-83606106630020783162011-01-04T19:57:07.722-05:002011-01-04T19:57:07.722-05:00Foundation garments may be physically physically b...Foundation garments may be physically physically but the real oppression is the expectation behind both shape wear and diet and exercise regimes that women are supposed to look a certain way. Or perhaps, even more fundamentally, that it matters what women look like. We may have traded one method of living up to the standard for another, and everyone probably has their own opinion on which is worse, but neither is the problem in itself. And this is why one might be able to reconcile shape wear with feminism: because its not the underwear (or the diet) itself that is bad but the pressure one feels to look a certain way (or to care about how one looks at all).Mayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-42321336374854540082011-01-04T18:49:35.375-05:002011-01-04T18:49:35.375-05:00I think corsets are totally hot. Forget the polit...I think corsets are totally hot. Forget the politics and looking for what it says about society and all that, they are hot. It would be different if i felt societal pressures that required me to, but at least the way things are now it's not an issue.Evahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08746600131596459987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-35043881739317724882011-01-04T18:03:00.256-05:002011-01-04T18:03:00.256-05:00There are certainly positives and negatives to bot...There are certainly positives and negatives to both sides of the argument, but I would stray closer to the opinion of Eleri Lynn on this one.<br /><br />When shaping undergarments were considered normal, so was your body. Now you are often considered abnormal or wrong for any 'imperfections'. But none of us are perfect and we can't have each generation born with the exact body type that will be in vogue for them.<br /><br />Not only has there been a rise in body image related illnesses, but there has been a rise in obesity. Obviously, the food that is marketed has a good deal to do with that, too, but I feel like maybe the higher we raise our standards on our bodies, the more we fall short of it.Shalynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16115642837674747948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-77439920308289026782011-01-04T17:05:03.570-05:002011-01-04T17:05:03.570-05:00Oddly enough, I wore my very first pair of control...Oddly enough, I wore my very first pair of control knickers today. Half way through the day I had to sneak into the loo and whip them off, they were unbearable!! Reading your article got me thinking (aargh!) about what lead me to wear these things in the first place; and therin, I think, lies the answer. (Or one possible answer at least). Perhaps neither foundation garments nor diet and excercise are particularly oppressive in themselves. Perhaps it’s what motivates us to use either of them in the first place that’s the real issue. Putting the health issues aside and focussing on the aesthetic, body image; throughout history and to this day, people have used corsetry and physical regime to sculpt themselves much as an artist would do. If the motivation is creative then that can be a very beautiful thing indeed. If the motivation is destructive (one of self loathing and dissatisfaction) then that, I think, is a real issue. As a UK 14 I’m pretty average, but I feel huge. I wish, as a liberated, feisty and free thinking woman I could say otherwise. So I wore those knickers, not to create something beautiful, but to hide something ugly. Because deep down I was ashamed of how my body looks. (Anyway, they’re in the bin now!!!)<br />Great blog as ever.<br />Miss P<br />xxx<br /><br />http://portialawrie.blogspot.com/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10017802422891332588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-43585055528595512152011-01-04T17:03:13.923-05:002011-01-04T17:03:13.923-05:00I have always been fascinated with foundation garm...I have always been fascinated with foundation garments (before i knew this is what they were called!), and i am so glad to see this book and this quote. I do believe that we have it worse now, not because the expectations are higher or more unrealistic, but because we are expected to look a certain way without any help. our clothing has gotten more sparse and see through and the emphasis is on seeing thinness through your clothes, the abs, breasts etc through your t-shirt.<br /><br />back when you could wear a girdle or corset or something else to help, at least you had a shot, and if you didn't look "perfect" you had some help faking it.<br /><br />now you are on your own and every flaw is glaringly obvious and i think that this leaves us always feeling sub-par.<br /><br />now without a doubt i would dismantle the unrealistic expectations first, but i long for the day when i can make my own corsets and foundation garments that will allow me to play around with how i look and feel, and maybe make some that are comfy (like your post on the long line bra)<br /><br />ps. i love your blog!!! thanks for everything you do and post here :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-21754031718036876062011-01-04T14:36:05.176-05:002011-01-04T14:36:05.176-05:00Another interesting discussion!
A person can only...Another interesting discussion!<br /><br />A person can only do so much with what her ancestors and God gave her at birth. I was born with an hourglass figure into the era of Twiggy and child-models. It isn't possible for me to change my basic shape into that fashion ideal. I'm just not made that way.<br /><br />I choose to keep my basic shape as small and toned as I can make it by working out daily, vigorously. I get high from it; I have more energy; I'm easier to live with; I'm happier.<br /><br />It's my choice, and one success of feminism is that: it is MY choice.BetsyVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14824251716471351275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-2788402510652033952011-01-04T13:33:39.240-05:002011-01-04T13:33:39.240-05:00I am pretty sure that concept is explored in The B...I am pretty sure that concept is explored in <i>The Beauty Myth</i>, but it's been some time since I read it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3259455441759015869.post-63506604483342160682011-01-04T13:29:57.263-05:002011-01-04T13:29:57.263-05:00I have thought this too - I was reading some fashi...I have thought this too - I was reading some fashion advice from early in the 20th century about how to keep your hands ladylike, and I was thinking how the best way to show that you're in the leisure class today is not to get a manicure but rather to have a very toned tricep. A manicure can be purchased - a toned tricep requires daily effort.purpleshoesnoreply@blogger.com